Are we measuring church success the wrong way? Today, many churches focus on programs, attendance numbers, and financial growth—things that can be easily tracked and recorded. But is this what truly builds disciples? In this interview, I discuss the difference between modern church metrics and the biblical model of life-on-life discipleship, personal shepherding, and spiritual growth. While administration has its place—especially after revival, as seen in John Wesley’s movement—have we allowed structure to replace true discipleship? Join me as we explore what it really means to shepherd God’s people and build a church that thrives beyond the numbers.

This brief interview was recorded on Feb 20, 2025.

Timecodes:
00:00 - Intro
00:31 - Our misconception of what constitutes discipleship
01:47 - Wrongly measuring discipleship by quantitative standards
03:15 - Examples in Scripture of what true discipleship is
03:53 - The Apostle Paul's intimate and relationally sensitive approach in discipleship (vs. confronting false teachers)
04:55 - The Apostle Paul's intentionality in knowing individuals personally
05:10 - The heart of true discipleship is especially lacking in larger churches
06:25 - The occurrences of moral scandals are indicators of many smaller moral compromises in churches
07:05 - The issue of bullying and money issues by church leaders
07:40 - Why youth are leaving the church and Christian faith
08:16 - The biblical norm vs. the trend of pastors' & missionaries' kids leaving church and faith
08:45 - The real meaning of discipleship
09:23 - Complementarian churches need to be more intentional in equipping mature Christian women too disciple younger women
11:28 - Church organization is important but should not become the main thing